How Unarmed Civilian Protection Creates Conditions for Democracy

Rachel: Deepa and I work together at Nonviolent Peace Force

Speaker A: My idea is that calling them podcasts because that makes sense, but just that more people are talking about and we hear from more people about UCP or about projects or about ideas or something like that. Hi. So today I am going to have a great conversation with Deepa. Deepa? Sureka. Deepa and I work together at Nonviolent Peace Force and I know know from talking to you that you're involved in loads of communities and other conversations that are going on in other parts of your life. And I'm always impressed when I'm talking to you about the different things that you know about and these businesses you're starting up. So I'm really glad that we can have a time to chat and find out more about how you ended up in this space of doing where civilians protect civilians.

Speaker B: Oh God. First and foremost, Rachel, thank you for inviting me to chat with you on this topic. I'm kind of excited. One of the best part of this journey has been able to work with people like yourselves. so your question on how I got started, I think towards the tail end of my last corporate gig with the Rakuten where I was the Chief operating officer, just went through this whole pressure cooker journey of go go. And then when I had the opportunity to hit a tiny pause, I started reading this book called Design Your Life.

Speaker B: Which was very intentional decision making. And as part of that, one of the things I was like, hey, I want to get more deeply involved with something I care about. And that sort of is how I started doing research on, what are some things. So education is one thing, I care for, human rights is another thing I care for. And right around the time maybe serendipitous, I had someone, who worked in the human rights space educate me about just how things work. I mean, this person works now with the UN. And I was really fascinated by it. And of course, as things go, I saw something on Facebook that TIFF Tool, who's the other board member had posted about NP. And that curiosity led to conversations and ultimately, an amazing chance to work with you.

Speaker A: That's fantastic. So it's all about conversations and all of this, how we understand things and learn from each other.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Oh God.

NP is an organization that helps protect people in conflict zones

Speaker A: So I'm going to give you a bit of a challenge now. If you have to tell somebody about what you do on your board member role, how do you ever explain to them what unarmed civilian protection is?

Speaker B: I always talk about NP, an organization that helps protect people in conflict zones, with their presence. They do with, negotiation tactics, help people stay safe and therefore keep communities safer. So that's what I say.

Speaker A: And I think that thing about locating it in that space, this is all stuff that happened in the midst of violence.

Speaker B: I actually even added that and I was like even though we live in a country like the United States and we don't think conflict exists, it does with a ton of work that NP has done in the whole BLM movement or within schools where keeping guns is I guess a new normal these days. and it's scary. So how do we keep our communities safe? Is not just a question in war or big conflict zones outside of this country. They are as relevant our conversation within this country.

Speaker A: Wow. So you actually see what's going on in other countries and what online places are doing and can you see it in your own community or in your.

Speaker B: Own, if not right away, within my own circle? certainly within this mean we've just had gun violence take lives of eight people in Dallas. in mean it's like an everyday news and it's scary. I mean I have two children and I think about what it is like as soon as you step out of your house. Do I need to worry about that stuff?

Speaker A: Yeah. So actually this idea that we need to protect people from violence is like a worldwide thing. So this isn't just a, small project maybe this is a huge project.

Speaker B: I see know one of the things that I love know it really made sense when Tiffany Stone, who's the ed at MP as you know, talks about is that conflict is innate to human, but violence doesn't have to be. that really stuck with me. Rachel, I don't know what drew you. I feel like that snippet which makes complete sense as individuals, we all are different and we have different opinions and we can agree to disagree. It's the how we do it can lead to sort of either it's done in a far more conversational, negotiation way or it could turn into something violent.

Speaker A: Well, I love the idea that people are mostly kind to each other.

Speaker B: It should be it should be that way. Right. Because there is no relationship other than the human to human eye contact. One of the things that I have been toying with is how do you bring this? first and foremost, I think people who work in this space are the best negotiators. You have to be able to talk to people. You have to demonstrate high level of empathy to negotiate with anyone on the field. And I feel those are kick a** skills. That skill that is absolutely needed in our schools in the world of business. I am blown away with, the intuitiveness that when I meet NP, leaders from the field, what they bring to the table in their conversations, their thoughtfulness, all of those are skills that I wish were taught in schools and in the corporate world.

Speaker A: Can you think of any of the things that you've heard of where they've sold something that would work in our communities.

Speaker B: I would love for Tiffany and her team to develop a practice, for organizations. I mean, think about conflict that know, they talk about the politics within companies.

Speaker A: Yes. I really like this idea that the way civilian, civilian protection works is like everywhere.

Speaker B: So when I think of the practice of UCP can unfold, to me it is a higher level of awareness. When Hubie talks about the US versus them versus all is innate to me. It is a larger conversation of human behavior. And if we can as a civilization, raise ourselves to be better at resolving conflict through conversation.

Speaker A: So if all of this violence is caused by guns and people thinking that they're allowed to kill each other, then maybe nonviolence is a permission. And the encouraging people to talk to one another.

Speaker B: I almost feel like nonviolence is probably a big pillar for democracy in itself. Like if we want a government by the people, for the people, we need to be able to do this in a way where we are listening.

Speaker A: Protection is in that moment where you have to save somebody from harm. But in doing so, you're ah, creating conditions for democracy, like real democracy, where people are listened to and feel like they participate.

Speaker B: When I think of the work of the women protection teams in South Sudan feel like they're basically laying the framework for a democratic approach to solving conflict.

Speaker A: Now we've got thousands of women trained in resolving conflict without weapons and able to have a voice.

Speaker B: I think it's freaking amazing.

Speaker A: It is amazing.

Speaker B: I think it's starting to living a more, I would say democratic life.

Speaker A: Connecting all these really big ideas together.

Speaker B: I think somehow I feel in the world that we live in, we tend to do more, what do you call, we do spend less time and effort on preventive care versus post damage, repair work. I think the way UCP currently is situated, it is very much in the world of post harm. I think the application, if we can bring it closer and closer to the preventative aspect, does it matter if it's the environment, if it's people, if it's countries? That's why I think the idea of application of the nonviolence practices or UCP is far broadened than its current application.

Speaker A: Well, especially like if you could introduce it into schools so people grew up learning about it. Do you have an idea of what does UCP need to do next?

Speaker B: I'll say something very controversial, which I think maybe I have also shifted and changed my thought on this one of the first few years I was on the board for NP, my biggest thing was like god, how do you scale? I mean, remember, I come from the corporate world and I just think that we haven't found a way to scale UCP. The practice of is if there was a magic way of spending time and research in how do you scale this work? Because that's the only way. Can you then apply it to multiple situations is when you know how the magic can be scaled.

Speaker A: I still not sure we really understand how it works. And until you really understand how it works, it's very difficult to scale it up because you don't know whether you're scaling up the relationships or the activities or the behaviors.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think know if you go to businesses, the humans don't scale. But the crazy part is, in the entire UCP practice, it's people to people. So either, we accept that UCP doesn't scale or we say, no, it scales. It just scales differently.

Speaker A: Any ideas on how to scale something like this challenge?

Speaker B: And I think that's where I feel the grasp there may be something there. If there was this sort of practice that could become part of a curriculum or somewhere in our early mechanics of how we educate, our young, I see that could be an opportunity. But like I said, there is such little knowledge I carry on it. But that is where I, intuitively go, which is, what can we do to scale UCP?

Speaker A: So what needs to be in place for people to be able to do their best?

Speaker B: It is what is the secret sauce? Like, what is the math that can be replicated in situation after situation after situation? Then someone just looks it up and say, here are the three things that helped solve which is consistent across each one of them. So, God, okay, that's your 70% scale. And then the rest 30 is human.

Speaker A: I still love the conversation that I had with you about creating large language models. All of this data can be gathered and we can start to, I don't know, maybe learn some of what of that thing is that people do.

Speaker B: It is very true, Rachel. And this is where I think as much as people are worried about AI and the large language models, there could be an opportunity. And I say that with a ton of, reflection because this road to h*** was paved with so I do say that with a measure of, deliberation. And I say I think we could I think we should try in a controlled fashion, understand what data we can gather from the field and the operations to maybe have a large language model help us figure out what those Heuristics are that can help scale the practice of UCP.

UCP is built on relationships and could we ever figure out what level needed

Speaker A: If we bring people like you and the field people all together, there's actually a whole mass of knowledge that we haven't yet managed to really make it work. I feel like there's something just over the horizon that we've got to go and find. To go like, oh, that's it. One of my crazy ideas was thinking about the six degrees of separation. The idea that UCP is built on relationships and could we ever figure out what level of relationship is needed to make this work?

Speaker B: I love it. I mean, in the good old days when we lived in smaller communities, it is how things were resolved. I mean, everyone knew everyone. I love it. I think all these are worth putting to test.

Cage: I think this could be solved with some bright minds

Speaker A: So if we wanted to tell people to learn about UCP, what would you suggest they start with?

Speaker B: I think protection comes from a place of fear. and that's why I think it is automatically seen as something that doesn't affect me today. That could be changing now. I think I mentioned to you with the gun violence in this country, that could change because when we see protection, we say we're a free world. But I don't know if I have an alternate solution for you either, which is what could it be? But I think this could be solved with some bright minds. I, think by first, making people feel that there is a need for them to learn it.

Speaker A: That is a great, answer. That's exactly what we need to do. We've got to show people that they need it.

Speaker B: I think the role the civilian society plays in keeping communities safe is significant. I do believe that instead of only working in damage control, trying to figure out ways that we can take these learnings and start sort of planting seeds of those at early stages could help us not I mean, wouldn't we want to see ourselves out of work in a few years? Cage? Wouldn't that be amazing? But in order to realize that vision, we need to plant the seeds much earlier for this conversation.

Speaker A: Thank you very much, for chatting and joining. Really, I really enjoyed talking to you and thank you.